.png)
Crucial Conversations
Dive into Crucial Conversations, your portal to insights from the trailblazers shaping our world. With Llewellan guiding the discourse, explore not only groundbreaking tech innovations like AI, web 3, and quantum computing but also inspiring life stories and transformative thought leadership. Engage with industry pioneers, visionary thinkers, and unsung heroes as they share both their cutting-edge inventions and the journeys that molded them.
Experience firsthand demonstrations of innovative tools and tune in to tales of resilience, ambition, and conscious leadership. From the dynamism of renewable energy to the essence of holistic growth, join the dialogue that's crafting our shared future. Subscribe and journey with us towards a brighter, more inclusive tomorrow.
Crucial Conversations
Six Years a Hostage, A Lifetime of Wisdom with Stephen McGown
“What does it mean to lose yourself? And more importantly...what does it take to find your way back?”
These were the questions echoing in my mind long after sitting down with Stephen McGown, a South African whose story isn’t just remarkable, it’s transformational.
Stephen’s journey from banker to hostage to international speaker isn’t just a tale of survival. It’s a mirror. One that forces us to look at the lives we’re living and ask: Am I truly free?
Before his abduction by Al-Qaeda in Timbuktu, Stephen was already wrestling with that quiet dissatisfaction many of us carry. He had grown up on a farm, grounded in simplicity and grit, but had ended up in a high-rise banking career that never quite fit. So he did what many dream of but few dare...he took off on a motorcycle adventure across Africa, searching for meaning beyond spreadsheets and city traffic.
That journey ended abruptly in the Sahara Desert, where he was held hostage for nearly six years.
Six years.
No phone. No calendar. No distractions. Just silence, sand, and survival.
And yet, this is where Stephen found himself.
He spoke about learning to track time through the rhythm of nature, by moonlight, by the migrations of birds, by the soft bloom of desert flowers. He spoke of peeling away the noise of life, the endless comparisons, the busyness that so often numbs us. “When all that noise settles down,” he told me, “you start to get in contact with things.”
That line has stayed with me. Because isn’t that what many of us crave...contact? With something real. With ourselves.
What struck me most was how Stephen chose to frame his captivity. He didn’t just survive it, he transformed it. He called it a sabbatical. A chance to go back to his 18-year-old self and ask, “Who was I before the world told me who I should be?”
And that right there is where the heart of his story lies. Not in the extremity of what he endured, but in the quiet bravery of what he reclaimed.
His message is deceptively simple, and yet deeply profound: Be authentic.
Not the fastest. Not the smartest. Just you. Anything else, and you’ll lose yourself. You’ll live a life that looks fine on the outside but feels empty on the inside.
Stephen’s story isn’t just about him. It’s about all of us.
It’s about the invisible prisons we build careers that drain us, relationships that shrink us, expectations that slowly erase us. And it’s about the courage it takes to break free, to look inward, to start again.
When he returned home, a friend told him: “Don’t compare yourself to us we’re more screwed up than you are.”
I laughed when he said that. But there’s truth in it.
Stephen walked through hell and came out whole. Not because he had a map but because he learned to listen to the compass inside him. The one we all have, even if it’s been buried under years of noise.
If his story teaches us anything, it’s this
Sometimes, you have to lose everything to find what truly matters.
And sometimes, the desert...real or metaphorical, is where your freedom begins
closer. Yeah, there we go, all right. Yeah, that's cool. How was so? You had some media interviews today yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:um, I mean, I've been here in singapore now for about 10 days actually. Um, I've done quite a bit of work out this side of the world, which has been amazing. It's incredible how the story seems to really resonate with this side of the world. It's great. Yeah, so I think this is my fourth trip back to Singapore in the last two years. I would say, yeah, fourth, fifth trip. So, yeah, I had some events last night and then today I was being interviewed by a magazine. So, yeah, I had some events last night and then today I was being interviewed by a magazine with some photos and also some video footage, and I mean they've got a paperback magazine and they've also got some online presence as well. So that's going to go out as well. So it's been a good trip for that. And networking Networking was my main thing. Come out here. I've met some South African guys, met a lot of local guys and amazing people. It seems like a lot of doors can actually open off the back of that, which has been fantastic.
Speaker 1:Nice. That's good. I think that Singapore is such an amazing place when it comes to the quality of people, from my experience. Also nice that there's so many South Africans that are here, and it's nice to see a fellow South African, you know, coming to visit. I'm glad it resonates. I'm interested to hear a little bit more about the kind of networks that you're opening. It must be quite a diverse, interesting group of people and I suppose we have to take a few steps back before we can go forward, just to understand how your life path has led you to this point.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think that I remember. I remember, you know, knowing that I was going to see you today. I was trying to jog my memory to that period of time and I remember the story and I remember how um challenging it was and how drawn out it was. Uh, I never thought I would meet you number one, and I think you know everyone was. It was like a massive sense of relief when, when the news broke that there was a resolution. But I think the story is always best told from, you know, the, the person who's lived it. And I think you know, maybe, maybe you can, you can pick a starting point that would best unpack the genesis that is this version of you that's led to this point.
Speaker 2:You know, um, you know it's what's. What's quite amazing is that you know, you, you probably have some information which I don't even have. Obviously, while I was sitting in the desert, um, the world was unfolding in the way that it does and, um, you know, it's up to a place which I don't fully understand as yet, but my understanding is that it was a massive story in south africa. You know, it was probably one of the first real kidnapping stories in south africa being an international kidnapping story, um, and I believe it hit the. It hit the press, I mean, I believe, in a massive way, but it hit the international press in a massive way, and I suppose what blew me away with this whole situation was just the fact how people pull together in tough times. Things can go one of two ways and I did experience both ways.
Speaker 2:When I came out the desert, there were some trolls on Twitter, ex who were basically saying British banker kidnapped by Al Qaeda and then a ransom was paid. This guy caused the credit crunch. You know these kinds of massive things. So there were guys who were sort of against me, if you like, guys speaking up, but the majority of the people, um, who seemed to come out with the people supporting me and just how it brought people together. In fact, I had friends from when I was living in London who said that this entire kidnapping experience for them, as tragic and difficult as it was, was one of the most incredible moments in their lives to actually teach them what is important in life, to teach them the value of friendship, but also the way it brought groups of people people I was working with in London within a desk, you know, on a floor, guys who were mates. People go their own way and they split up and they separate and friendships come and go. But off the back of my kidnapping, during my kidnapping, people were creating WhatsApp groups and it brought masses of people together again to reunite friendships. So it really, as difficult as it was, it showed the humanity within people, which was amazing.
Speaker 2:And, like I say, I'm still on this journey. I hear you now. You also have got parts of a story which would probably add value to my life. I'd probably walk away saying you've taught me something or you've added something else, because when I actually came out of the desert, those early days, even right now, are very blurry. You know, I'd say the first two years things were happening and I don't really recall them clearly right now, and I've met people from those first years first two years and they tell me a story and, for starters, I don't even know who these people are, but they say they actually sat down and had lunch with me and we had a full conversation, but it's just falling into a blank space inside my head. So, yeah, anyway, it's a massive journey and there's a lot going on.
Speaker 2:And now I've now basically hit break even from the kidnapping I was held for just short of six years. I've now been out for just longer than six years and I think the amazing thing is is that these kind of life experiences you know, it's not something like a sprained ankle where you get over it six months later and then off you go for a jog it's something which I think almost remains with you, you know, for life. Actually, you know, and in a way I wanted to remain with me for life, because if it was something that I just basically, you know, dried my eyes and stood up straight and next thing, life becomes normal again, I would forget so many of the most amazing lessons that had taught me there in the desert. You know, back back in south africa. I, I was from a privileged family, if you like.
Speaker 2:I went to a fancy school. I'm not saying we had all the money in the world at all. We often lived in debt because we we were from a farming, a farming, farming family, and I think everything in farming is basically borrowing money to try and get the harvest and then the harvest comes in and you try and pay off your debt. So privileged family, but I suppose, yeah, I mean privileged family but I never really went without. But then living in the desert and then living without permanently really taught one what one is capable of and taught one to appreciate, and taught one to appreciate people and really, most importantly, what we are capable of when we believe in ourselves and when we really get to understand ourselves. And I think for me that was probably my biggest takeaway from the entire desert experience. And if I was to ever put this whole thing behind me and forget what I'd learned from that, I mean it would be tragic, it would be an absolute tragedy.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I'm going to scratch a little bit and pull at some threads and if at any point there's something that you're not comfortable in sharing or discussing, please just let me know. But I am inquisitive and I think that life works in funny ways when it comes to how things can so dramatically change in an instant and how you are tested at every level to adjust or die right or to fade away. And I'm keen to uncover and immerse the audience a little bit back into the beginning of the story and maybe you can paint a picture and again, at any point, if you're not comfortable, you can just say move on. But I believe it will add immense value to understand those early moments. I believe it will add immense value to understand those early moments.
Speaker 1:So, if you can give us a bit of context and for those that are listening, you ended up in a situation that resulted in six years of your life being taken away from you in some respect. In another respect, I suppose it changed who you are and what you are If we go back to the beginning. So you're from South Africa. How did you end up in that situation? And take us back to that moment where you're working in another country. You're doing a specific role and something switches and probably at first you don't realize what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. So how did I get into the situation? I think I've always had an adventurous spirit. I mean, life should be an adventure. To be honest, I think when life becomes bland, you know, that's a bit tragic. Actually, we get one life we must live with. We must do this thing. So I think from a farming… it's so funny that you say that.
Speaker 1:Sorry to interrupt you, because last night we were just talking about Trevor Noah, right, yes, and he was talking about um, how it's, how it's no, no, how it's. White men have this thing about to do dangerous things. And he went on a whole narrative around this, so it's quite funny to hear the start of the story, where it would be adventurous because he's going to be like yeah, you see, I told you yeah.
Speaker 2:I've heard this all the time. Why do people want to go for a run or a hike or a camping Submarines? I don't want to see the Titanic.
Speaker 1:Why do you want?
Speaker 2:to go camping.
Speaker 1:I had a whole skit on it anyway, really, eh yeah, it was funny, sorry. Coming back to you, no man.
Speaker 2:So, being from a farming background, what Our holidays as a youngster was either at the beach or it was in the Kruger National Park, and then time on the farm. Where in South Africa did you grow up Johannesburg, johannesburg, and on a farm in Joburg. We had a farm in the Free State, in the Orange Free State, near Friesburg Massive cherry farm and of course I was a child so it was even bigger.
Speaker 1:And yes, the Engelsmann and the Freistadt yeah.
Speaker 2:With the biggy roof, yes, but I mean it was a beautiful farm. We had these mountains. It was near the Golden Gate, so we had these massive sandstone mountains and we had cherry trees and we had a big dam and we stocked the dam with fish when I was like five years old or something, so we had bass fishing and mate made it was paradise. It sounds like it. I think. When you die, I think you end up. There is the way it. I mean it was just absolutely exquisite and um, and I think it was down there that that that my passion for the outdoors was created. You know, all this time outdoors listening to pigeons cooing in the morning, in the spring, it was absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 2:But farmers are also. Yeah, yeah, it's a different psyche with the farmer and the farmer, the farming family and unit. But I think what it also does is it makes you more real. You know, when you, when you live in the city permanently, you know it's it's sort of everything becomes numbers and and everything becomes quite two-dimensional. But living on, but living on a farm and spending time on a farm, you know, you see the depth to everything and you see the reason behind everything and you know the trees get green in spring and the leaves fall off in autumn, and you know, and it gets hot and it gets cold, and the moon gets big and gets small, and I think it just shows that there's more to life and there's almost order behind life, whereas living in a city you don't see that, but detached from nature, no, you don't see it, you don't see it, you don't see it, you don't see it, you don't see it, and I think there's a level of stress in the city as well that people operate under this level of stress.
Speaker 2:So I was very privileged, actually, because we had the farm and we had time in Joburg, and when Joburg was too much with the reality of the real world, you go to the farm and then you get the other reality and you spend time there and then back to Joburg. What school did you go to? Did you go to school in the Free State? I was in Joburg, which school were you in. I was at St John's.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, St John's boy, I'm a Jeppy boy. Oh, you're a Jeppy boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, ah, you guys were the guys on steroids, obviously one right through to Matric.
Speaker 1:Yeah there's good rivalry between those two schools. Yeah, absolutely, you guys Still is. It's amazing to see how the tradition in those schools are still so strong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those were good times back at school. I really enjoyed that. Okay, so you were boarding. So, yes, I boarded for Matric. Actually, I was voted in to be head of a boarding house, so I was a school prefect. I don't know how I did that, but the boys voted me in, so because of that, I was head of a boarding house. They, the school, then got me in to come and board.
Speaker 2:They said it's better to be to be boarding if you're ahead of a boarding house. So I went in just for my trick, for boarding in my trick, yeah yeah, good fun made good mates and, um, yeah, real, like real camaraderie and and silliness. You know like it was.
Speaker 1:Defining was first bit of independence really, are you still quite close with some of the people from I've?
Speaker 2:got. I've got some good mates from st john's.
Speaker 1:Still some good mates from same I'm actually going on a tour in august with a group of jeffy boys. We're going to be going to croatia. Are you fantastic? It's nice to see. I'm always amazed how impactful those years are, because for was it five years of your life? Yeah, and then you know. You look at how long we've been out of school. It's still so tight and still so bonded. Yeah, amazing school.
Speaker 2:And it was also incredible is that I've found quite a few of my mates now are from different age groups you know, so not only my year, the guys who were ahead of me and guys, guys after me, but there was that whole connection of school, you know, and I got some great mates who were actually in different years as well, from St John's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I find even now post-school whenever you meet anyone from you know CARES JP St. John's, St Stithians, even, yeah, St Stithians, I mean even some of the other schools, like Gray or, you know, like the main schoolboys schools in South Africa. There's a specific caliber of human that comes out of that that you can immediately resonate with across generations.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I totally feel you on that. Okay, so you're at St John's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was there from grade one to Matric and a lot of time on our farm, which was really privileged because a lot of our mates we used to head down to the farm regularly, regularly, regularly, and a lot of our mates would go down there groups of like 10, 15 guys, you know, and you'd be swimming in the dam, climbing the mountain, you know, riding motorbikes, playing card games in the evening, having a few beers. You're making me listen.
Speaker 2:Oh mate, it was special, it was privileged. It was so, so special Just through experience. Special through experience, you know, and privileged through experience. Not privileged through cash, privileged through experience, you know. It just was amazing. But it was down here that my passion for the outdoors my mom loved the Kruger Park, my dad loved the beach, so we, sort of between the two of those, we spent our holidays in those places and I think those were all outdoorsy so it sort of, you know, instilled this sense of adventure, if you like.
Speaker 2:And I went and I studied at BCom in honors in marketing and finance and risk, and my intention in the beginning was to go and do BSC agri-management at Maritzburg. And I got in, I was accepted and off I was going to go. And then I remember it was early in the new year before university started, after Matric, that my dad came to me and said to me Steve, bsc Agri-Management, I would dissuade you for going into this because it's a really crappy career. Farming is terrible and also this particular business, this farming business, doesn't have enough cash to run two families. Okay, so you get married, you have kids, we've got two families on the go. It's not going to work, so you should maybe try something else. So I was a bit disheartened and I thought, well, you know what do I do? What do I do? So I looked around and let's do something. Business, okay, bcom, standard business. You can't go wrong with a standard business degree. At least you get some letters behind your name.
Speaker 2:So I went and I looked at this and then I did my BCom. Then I did honors in marketing and finance and risk. And then we had a family friend and their son went into finance. He was a few years older than me and he was working in a bank, in finance. And I mean, I'm not a money grabber, hey, money is not important for me. But I thought, what am I going to do? And I thought, well, you know, maybe this gives you a sense of something. Working in a bank, you know, get a bit of status, all this kind of rubbish. And then I went in and I started working in a bank. It didn't suit me. I was the wrong guy for the wrong job. Okay, it just did not suit me. What role were you doing at Quebec? Gee whiz, I was supervising a department. Okay, in the middle office in the beginning. And then I managed to get out of that and I went to the front office and then I was doing a bit of trading and then I was doing a bit of programming and creating spreadsheets and applications for the traders, and then I ended up changing companies and then I went into credit risk and that was more fun because it was more mental and it wasn't just conversational.
Speaker 2:But I think the biggest tragedy, the biggest loss that I had within my banking career was I've always enjoyed the outdoors, I've always enjoyed people, I've always enjoyed positive and silly conversations, I've always enjoyed exercise. And then I go and I get into a job that is with people who are unhappy. It's long hours, no exercise and I'm stuck indoors and no outdoors. And it didn't take me long to actually realize that the romanticism. And now you think you're starting a job, you think, well, within five, ten years you're going to be like this big shot, you know, and you're going to have your fancy car and all the rest. And it was a real like a crash landing when you realize you're actually working long hours and all your dreams are not quite there. And I think, off the back of that I had a quarter life crisis in a proper a proper one, I mean, I think within.
Speaker 2:I think in the beginning, when I caught up with my friends after work first couple of months, guys would say where are you? Why are you late? I was like guys, I was at the office. You know, I'm cool, I'm successful, I'm working. Here we go and I think and I think you almost lived off the lived off the back of that by almost like, look at me, I'm working hard, I'm achieving, and I think within about a year I decided this was absolute rubbish. I would rather be out, you know, going for a run or talking rubbish to my mates, and I realized the whole grandeur of trying to pretend as though you're achieving in your career was actually just a complete waste of time. I'm glad you realized that early on.
Speaker 2:I did, but I did nothing about it. I did nothing about it. I was terrified. I thought if I throw in my career now I will look like a failure. I'll look like you know my dad's successful, you know with what he's done. I thought now I'm one year into my career. If I get out of this, I look as though I can't hold the job you know. And now I go from banking into marketing, for example, with more people, but I just thought it would look bad on my CV.
Speaker 2:And then also, yeah, and then also I also thought I'd be letting my father down, I think, and that was a big thing. I I think, and that was a big thing. I thought my father's created this thing. My father always said to me you never give up. And I misunderstood him. Okay, I think what he was saying was find something that you're passionate about and give it everything and never give up.
Speaker 2:The way I understood it was get into something and just hammer yourself down that road, whether it's a sunny road or a dark road, irrelevant, you just don't give up. And because I was hammering myself down a dark road irrelevant, you just don't give up. And because I was hammering myself down a dark road that didn't resonate with me, eventually I lost myself in that and then during that period, I then thought, look, it's time to go and travel and get out of this thing. And eventually I was dating a girl and she said she was going to go to the UK and I thought, well, I am so disillusioned, I'm so miserable, let me get out of this, let me try something, you know. And I thought, well, look.
Speaker 2:So I threw it in, actually, and I went and got a visa for the UK and I went to go and try and get a visa for the UK and they declined me. And I said I went back to the office that afternoon and I literally changed jobs on the same day within the business and that was me going from middle office to the front office and I felt quite enlightened by that because it was now dealing with more happy people, positive people, stuff. That was more my kind of thing, but banking generally wasn't my kind of thing at the stage. So then about a year later, I then reapplied for a visa and then I got a visa and then I was like, right, I'm out of here, go to the UK. The plan was to go and paint houses, bloody, plant trees, whatever you need to do.
Speaker 1:Do anything but go into banking.
Speaker 2:Anyway, it took two weeks and I was back in banking and then I was working back in banking. But the joy of working in banking in the UK for me was that everybody was an immigrant and everybody was there to earn a bit of cash to go home. They did not want to work longer hours. They will be there to get the job done and then go home. There was none of this, none of this psychology where somebody leaves at five o'clock and the whole department says, ah, working half day. You know none of that, that, that perverse flipping humor. So in the UK, I enjoyed my time in the UK, but eventually I was in the UK for about seven years and I met my wife in the UK, south African lady, and it was great, massive South African community and we had some good, some really good times, some cycling and running and picnics, picnics in the park in London, and I mean quality, quality, quality, quality time. But then eventually we both got dual nationality, we got British passports and off the back of this we were now heading back to South Africa. Now I thought, well, you know, now I've got a little bit of cash in the bank, my dad's now retiring, so now is a perfect chance for me to head back and now get into the farming business. My dad wants to retire, I'm done with banking and you know, now the business won't have to run two families, it's just one family because my dad's retired, he's going to have his RAs whatever paying him out. So I'll get into the business. And this is where things started. And this was exciting.
Speaker 2:But I was still not in a great head space from my banking time. I mean, I had refound myself to a degree in banking in the UK where I'd lost myself in banking in South Africa purely from saying yes to everybody and never standing up for myself, because I wasn't passionate enough about what I was doing to even have a solid argument. So people would come and say, do it like this and I'd say, fine, I'll do it like that, because I just wasn't motivated to actually stand up for a solid cause. So I lost myself in banking UK, found myself a bit, but now we were heading back to South Africa and I'd always had this desire to ride a motorbike through Africa. Originally in South Africa it would be from Joburg up North and then back down South.
Speaker 2:But actually now leaving the UK seemed a much easier option because I'm living in London Now. It's a one-way trip, it's half the amount of time. I got some pounds. It just seems to make sense, okay. But now I was dating a girl seriously and we had just gotten married. So I thought, well, I wonder if this is going to work. But I bounced it off, my new wife of four years and I said to her look, you know about this dream of mine, this passion for Africa, and I tell you what, let's head back home. But you fly and I'm going to ride a bike back. How much time are you going to give me? And it was a bit of a haggle, a bit of negotiation going on here, and yeah, and she allowed me six months and the idea was for me to arrive home before our fifth year wedding anniversary, I mean that's an epic trip.
Speaker 1:I think Ewan McGregor's done that trip, hasn't he?
Speaker 2:Yeah, something like that, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was old Charlie Borman, ewan McGregor yeah.
Speaker 1:And what bike did you have.
Speaker 2:So they were on GSs. I went on a Yamaha XT, a 600 XT, wow, so like the old Tenere. But I couldn't find the exact bike that I wanted in the UK. I was on Gumtree, looking on Gumtree, to be honest with you, and eventually I bought my bike. I was halfway through a bottle of red wine in Richmond in London, I was with a family event and I sat there with my phone under the table busy putting in bids on eBay to try and buy the bike and eventually I was like, yes, got the bike Completely overpaid for it because I was slightly inebriated, but it was a fantastic day and that was me understanding and realizing that now I have my bike.
Speaker 1:And now this thing's coming together. I mean that's an epic vision. I can't fault you on anything you've just said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. And the thing was, I mean I wasn't doing this trip to be a hero or to show off, it was something which I wanted to do. So people say to me were you being dumb, were you being silly? I mean like getting kidnapped, I mean you know what kind of an idiot does a bike trip through Africa. But the truth is I did all my research. Okay, I planned my trip. There were a couple of routes I was keen to do. One was straight down through Algeria. Okay, straight down the middle of Algeria, through a place called Taman Rasset. You then basically get to the end of a tall road and then you've got desert sand and then you've got about 200 kilometers of desert sand and then you pop out in Niger. That's cool. So my point on that was that on that 200-kilometer dirt stretch there was banditry.
Speaker 1:So I didn't do that trip because I thought— so you made calculated decisions, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I did a mechanics course. I. I didn't do that trip because I thought so. You made calculated decisions. Absolutely. I did a mechanics course. I had prepped my bike, I had done all my flip and prep and I even said to my dad. I said, dad, I want you to be a hero and this bike is not a super fancy bike, it's only money. If anything goes wrong, I'm happy to ditch the bike and literally I'll go to the airport and jump on a plane and fly back. I can abandon all of this stuff and you were going to do it by yourself. So again, I wasn't going to be a complete fool. I liked the idea of having complete flexibility to do it by myself. But at the same time I realized that maybe some people had concerns and my biggest worry was what if I fall off my bike and break my leg? Then you get stuck under the bike. Now you're in trouble. And maybe my plan was not to do tar roads, I wanted to do dirt roads. So if I do fall off a bike on a dirt road, I'm probably going to be in the sticks somewhere off the beaten track. So you're going to be in trouble. So I did do it with somebody and I jumped onto Overland Forums and know invites out there. Guys, I'm planning a trip for next year October. Anybody out there? And some guys.
Speaker 2:It was during the Arab Spring, just before the Arab Spring, so a lot of doors were closing. Okay, so there weren't too many routes through Africa. But some guys said, look, we're doing East Coast. And I was like but East Coast is too vanilla, that is too Charlie Warman, ewan McGregor, that is too long way down. And that was not my route, that was not my intention. For me they were too insipid, too organized, too planned, too much tar. I wanted something with an adventure. So I said I want to do West Coast Full stop.
Speaker 1:Pretty ballsy, yeah, west Coast. And so paint us a picture of what the route supposed to be from beginning to end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was going to be London, from the UK across into France, france, into Spain, spain into Portugal, portugal, back into Spain, across at Gibraltar, into Morocco, morocco, western Sahara, mauritania, mali, mali was going to be down into Burkina Faso, burkina Faso down into Benin, togo, nigeria, around the bulge of Africa Now we're heading down into, like for me, proper Africa, with the mountains and the forests and the mud, roads and this stuff, you know, big jungles. So then Nigeria down into Cameroon, cameroon into Congo, into other Congo, into Angola, angola, down into Namibia. And then I was going to go east and go Botswana, zimbabwe, and then pop out of Zimbabwe back into South Africa.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Jesus, that's epic, I mean that's like a laugh and, llewellyn, it was going to be further. Mate, I wanted to. Actually, the only reason I did Mali, the only reason I did Mali where I got kidnapped okay, was because Bamako, the capital of Mali, had a number of embassies and it could be a one-stop shop to pick. You know, stick to the coast, sierra Leone, down into Ghana, down into Gambia, sierra Leone, down into Guinea, the other Guinea, down into Liberia. You know all of those fun places.
Speaker 2:Yeah but it was too many border crossings and too little time. So I went to Mali, where the kidnapping took place.
Speaker 1:So that wasn't even. My next question was was it quite a a tight timeline? Six months sounds like a long period, but I mean for that route. Yeah, I mean, how many k's you do in a day, like what?
Speaker 2:yeah, look, I didn't want to break more than like two, three hundred k's a day. Yeah, you know, if you're going to do 600 k's in a day, you're going to be sitting in the saddle all the time and and I even really enjoying the country.
Speaker 2:I even said to my, to my bike. So sorry, I can go back to your other question. Did I do it alone? I ended up doing it with a Dutch policeman, a motorbike policeman. Okay, and? And now to come back to you, the question you're asking me now, my plan was not to go too far every single day. I was there for the journey, okay, I was there for the experience, to sleep rough, to get myself filthy. I did not want to stop after 4 pm, ever Stop 4 pm. Find a place to camp, camp, camp no hotels, camp Place to camp. Bring out the binoculars. Bring out my bird book. Look at West African birds, you know. Find a river, go and fish in these rivers. That was it.
Speaker 1:But take 4 o'clock until sunset to to be and to take in the experience problem was my um.
Speaker 2:You're definitely evoking the the the side of me just with this really, yeah, for sure I can totally see it.
Speaker 1:I mean there's a sense of freedom. I can only imagine the excitement. Uh, very ballsy. I must be honest, like I've traveled and you, I can go most places. I think south africans, we tend to be quite durable and capable, but that's a that's a different level of, of um adventure and um exposure to elements and and randomness. So, but there is a side of me that sees that and that and fantasizes definitely with what you're sharing.
Speaker 2:That's that's so you know, I mean, for me I had this, this little sort of mantra when I was younger. I used to say what you can't fit into a rucksack, you probably shouldn't own. Okay, so, and then I bought a flat screen tv and that all that blew that whole thing out of the water. But but the whole plan was to do a motorbike and travel light, travel light, so you. So you end up relying more. You've got to be self-sufficient. Rather than going in a big four by four and staying in hotels, travel light and spend more time focusing on the experience and the people, the conversations, than actually spending time focusing on all the gadgets and having enough money to do all this stuff. I wanted to get filthy.
Speaker 2:You know, get filthy To do some randomness yeah, and that and that was what the whole thing was. But my riding partner um this, this dutch policeman, really cool guy, but um, and he was a amazing motor biker because he was a dutch motor motorcycle policeman um, him and I were on different pages, okay, and he so you started together. We we met in salamanca in spain and we went down. We went down from Spain together.
Speaker 1:So before you met him, you left from London towards Spain. You started that route by yourself by myself, yeah. What was the feeling when you started that?
Speaker 2:Oh man it was. I felt like I had this little kettle inside me just bubbling away. You know, this is like a little bit of hot sort of steam blowing around inside me, just absolute excitement, lightness, like finally. After you know, I had this dream since I was 16 years old, and now I was or was I? I was now 30, 35. I had this dream that I was now finally fulfilling, finally fulfilling. So it was the most incredible, incredible, incredible feeling.
Speaker 2:But what was very bizarre and the reason I spoke to you just now about the fact that you know, this story is on so many layers, it's ridiculous. There are so many stories within stories and things that can run parallel within this. The reason I brought up the fact that I'd lost myself in banking okay was because on this motorbike ride, while I was living my dream and taking in the birds and the rivers and all these amazing things, I was traveling down through. It was through Western Sahara and it's a long, straight road and it's the edge of the Sahara and it's basically the western lip of the Sahara before the Sahara falls into the Atlantic Ocean, and you literally have a cliff face on the right hand side, dropping down I don't know 40 meters into the Atlantic. It's literally like the end of the world dropping in and there's the sand from the Sahara blowing across the star road and disappearing off into the sea. And I was driving down this road dead straight. A thousand kilometers driving down this road and I sat there thinking isn't this amazing? I'm living my dream. This is incredible. And I'm going home to start this new life, getting into farming my dream forever.
Speaker 2:And then I had this realization on the bike and I sat there and thought but six months isn't long enough. I'm still not in a good place in my head to go back and climb into my father's business and make a success out of it, because I still feel as though my life is out of balance and I've got this fog inside my head from my banking and I have not quite re-found myself in the last few years. So I might go home and be a complete disaster in trying to take on this new job. And ironically, ironically, six months is not enough. Ironically, I then got kidnapped for just short of six years. I was just going to say so.
Speaker 2:It's so strange. I mean, you know there's so many stories within stories here. I mean, you know there's the story of me as a person just trying to find my own way through life and actually get my head clear, to go and live authentically for myself, you know, from banking into farming but not having the right period of time. Then there's like a spiritual flipping journey here where I acknowledged to myself that for my entire banking career I was the wrong person in the wrong role. But yet I was too much of a coward, if you like to get out of it. I was too fearful to change careers. And in a very strange way I acknowledged that to myself on the motorbike by saying six months is not enough. And it almost felt as though the entire kidnapping was God, ordained by a higher power, where this higher power came along and said you've got yourself into this mess. There is something more that you're supposed to be doing. You have not got enough time to clear your head, so I'm going to separate you from this world and put you somewhere else. So you've now got this sabbatical to try and figure out who you are and what you are, to actually come back.
Speaker 2:And strangely, in the desert I mean six years is a long time when the noise goes quiet, when the when, when those red buses of London start to sort of, when that big hum stops to go away, when the busyness of a pub, the busyness of the streets, the busyness of all the noise, the busyness of paying bills settles down and all you can actually hear is your own thoughts in the desert. I mean those early days you would have this hum in your ear for months, just this humming sound, because it was so quiet. But when all of that noise settles down, you start to get in contact with things. I would tell the time by the moon. I would tell the seasons by literally watching blossoms on trees and then watching these flowers fall off. I would tell the seasons by watching baby birds, you know, flying around the Sahara and then they would become big birds by thunderstorms in the Sahara. You literally went away from using a watch or a calendar to telling time and seasons by watching the environment around you.
Speaker 2:When you get to this place, it's amazing how you start to get in touch with something that is far greater than you, and I could hear this voice speaking to me in the desert, and this voice was basically solidifying everything that I felt from my time in banking, from the fact that I should have left banking when I was younger. To the fact that I did not leave banking, to the fact that I lost myself, to the point that now I was being separated from the real world. And this voice kept saying to me you are here, you're not going to be harmed, you're going to be here for a while, but you're here to learn something. And once you've learned this, you're going to go home. And finally, at the end of my five years, eight months in captivity, this voice out of nowhere came to me and said to me Steve, your Saharan schooling is coming to a close and you're going home now for your city schooling. And two months later I went home.
Speaker 2:So stories and stories. There's like a spiritual story, there's a human story, there's a terrorism story. Al-qaeda have got their own reasons for kidnapping me as well. You know. They've also got their story. And I suppose, spending six years within this environment, you start to understand everybody's story. You know, while you were in Joburg or here in Singapore, wherever you were, you were living. I was living in the Sahara. I had breakfast, I had lunch, I had dinner. I just had different experiences. So it was normal life in a completely different part of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the contrast. I see the contrast because from banking to such an adventure is just like it's quite an extreme pivot the internal conflicts around your time and your destiny and your journey, and then the time unlocking right Just not in the way that you thought when you started that. Beginning part of the trip, before you got to Mali, did you ever feel vulnerable? Were there any incidents or weird things that happened, where you're like, okay, this is real, I'm actually exposed. Is there any any other things that happened? I had a.
Speaker 2:I had um, I mean, everything was going fine, absolutely fine, but there was a bit of a strange experience that took place in um, mauritania. I was riding along the road with my partner and we were now the Dutch guy.
Speaker 2:The Dutch guy. And now we were down in Southern Mauritania, if you like. It's got a long east-west border that basically joins up with Mali, where I was kidnapped, and we were driving basically from the west, from the coast, straight into the Sahara along the border, and halfway along we were coming across a place called Ayun, I think was the place, ayun Altruz, I think was the name, and they had these roadblocks all the way along these roads, you know, and they had Jean de Maris and they'd stop you and they would want to see your passport and you'd have to sign in with these guys and then you would travel another 100 kilometers, 200 kilometers, and then they'd stop you again. So they were trying to keep track of who was where and what was what. And we were approaching this one town it's still a long way away, but it was probably one of the furthest east towns on a tar road within Mauritania, before you then drop down south into Mali, and now this was getting towards the Sahara proper. So now things are becoming more vulnerable, apparently, and we were pulled up at one of these roadblocks and this guy came across to us and checked our passports and our carnets and then said to us all right, so you're going through to Ayun al-Trus. So we're like, yes, he said all right, well, just make sure you don't stop. If anybody tries to stop you, just make sure you keep going. You only stop in that town. And we're like, what's this about? He said, yeah, there's been some kind of religious activity out here, but not for a long time, some extremist activity out here, but not for up throttle. And you get to the next town and in the town you stop. That was my first realization that actually this was something serious and that actually did play quite an impact in my mind. It did actually make a bit of an impact.
Speaker 2:But then we had another strange moment as well. The day before the kidnapping we did our homework. I was sitting in Bamako, the capital of Mali, discussing going to Timbuktu with a bunch of travelers, and then I did a bit of research and I asked the actual owner of the guest house and he was like I'm up there every two weeks. Go, it's great, you'll love it, it's safe, go, go, go. So we had sort of decided it was a relatively safe journey and we went up to Timbuktu and the morning of the kidnapping actually a few of us were going for a walk around Timbuktu.
Speaker 2:I was not keen to do organized tours. I'm not that kind of a tourist, like I say, I'm there to get myself filthy and just sort of take in the experience. So we went for a walk around Timbuktu and as we walked out of our orbeige, there were some young children there in the street Young, 13 years old, 14 years old maybe, maybe slightly younger even. And these guys and they were short little guys and they came up and they said, oh, tour guides, tour guides, we'll take you around Timbuktu. And I mean we were like, listen, thanks, but no, thanks, we don't need a tour guide. We have our lonely planet, we've got our planned trip.
Speaker 2:And the guys were irritated about this. So they looked at us and they basically barked back at us we're going to get Al-Qaeda to come get you and take you into the desert. And we were… they said that to you in English. It was English, I think it was English. I think it was English. It was English, I think it was. I think it was English, I think it was English. I say I think because a lot of that day is actually very blurry in my head. It was either English or French, but I mean, I think it was English because it was very clear to me what they said. So I think it was English and I remember we were who's with you at this point. So this was Shark and Tilly, a Dutch couple, and myself. So we were four people going for a walk around.
Speaker 1:And the Dutch guy had already separated from you at this point the police guy.
Speaker 2:My Dutch guy, so my traveler. We had actually separated about two days prior to this. We decided to play catch up. So in other words, he was there for the motorbike because he was a Dutch policeman, motorbike policeman and he could ride. He was evil can evil he through fiery hoops and in fact on my route up to Timbuktu with the other guys, I found him and he had broken his bike in half. He did some crazy stuff, hitting soft sand at 80 k's an hour, okay, and he took off and him and the bike flew like 30 meters and then the bike broke in half, okay, so he missed the kidnapping by a day because he broke his. So I said to him look, I'll see you tomorrow back in the city where we can weld your bike back together.
Speaker 2:So we pushed on. So I was there with another Dutch people, so we were four people walking around and this young kid said we're going to get Al-Qaeda to take you into the desert. And I remember turning to Shark and Tilly and saying wow, that was aggressive. I mean, what kind of a comment is that? You know, sort of pulling a face. Anyway, it took five minutes and then we had forgotten about it and we continued doing our thing and, peculiarly enough, probably about an hour later, two hours later I ended up getting kidnapped.
Speaker 1:Can you explain to me exactly what happened in that beginning? How did it just unfolded for me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just a it was. I mean, we were tourists living our dream, you know, just just having a day out, having a day out in timbuktu, and we were sitting inside our patio and sitting inside at your accommodation at our, at our little orberge.
Speaker 2:We're just sitting outside on the, on the patio, a dirty, scruffy little patio, sitting outside, um, and and randomly, out of the blue guys walked in with guns, ak-47s and um, and we looked at this and I was confused because you know, you know, as south africans, I mean, you know, we're not foreign to situations yeah, so I mean, I looked at this, the one. The one guy had a revolver. He didn't look very aggressive and I was quite confused as to what's going on here.
Speaker 1:Did they come in with?
Speaker 2:an aggressive nature. This guy came in. He wasn't even looking at us, he was looking down the side of the hotel. So I actually thought he was a policeman looking for somebody else and that he just happened to come into our compound and he was sort of tracking somebody else. He was clean-shaven, he had white Nike tackies on. He didn't look like a, he didn't look Muslim, he didn't look like a terrorist, he looked like a policeman. He looked like a good looking young policeman who was there for somebody else is what it was.
Speaker 2:And then guys came in with AK-47s and then it just got real. And then it got real, and then we were dragged into the street. One of our guys was killed, um, and the rest of us were on the spot, on the spot, killed on the spot, and then was he resisting or what? Yeah, um, yeah, but yeah, he was a european guy from europe, um, and I just think maybe he didn't understand that if somebody's got a gun in africa, they're probably meaning business and, um, you know, you put your hands up. I think you put your hands up, you know, I mean you can try and push back, but I don't know, I suppose. Look, I mean you get. You know, you get stories in Johannesburg where people are at gun point and people stand up towards the attackers and the attackers sort of give up and leave. This didn't happen. This guy put up a bit of resistance and then he tripped and then this one guy shot him. Shot him three times in the head.
Speaker 1:I've been. I was, I studied at Pretoria Technicon, which became TUT, and the one day I got off the bus and I was on my phone, Nokia 3210 or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Walking.
Speaker 2:All those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly the indestructible ones. And I was walking to the the city campus, where they drop you off at the female res outside and then you walk to the the campus and there was three guys in front of me and I put my, I finished with my phone, I put it and I was walking in. The one guy hung, hung back and he was like do you have a? Um, do you have a lighter? I'm like sorry, I don't smoke. As I walked past him, it was just like something, something clicked and I immediately put my arm through the other strap of my bag and as I did that, the two guys turned around and the one had a knife.
Speaker 1:And the reason I raised this is because I want to ask you the same question, because in that moment it was like a fight or flight moment and my knee-jerk reaction, which was pretty stupid considering the value of what they were they had obviously seen me on my phone and that I put it away. And as they turned around, the guy that came to me with the knife, I just went for him, okay, and I ended up getting like a little cut and I thought I'd chase them away by being aggressive and trying to fight it off and then my pants were ripped and I was bleeding and then I realized, ah, the phone. They saw the phone. They were just trying to get the phone.
Speaker 2:And they got the phone.
Speaker 1:They got the phone, they ran away and then it was the weirdest moment because then you're in a state of shock and, uh, everyone that saw it happen across the road went the other side and it was just like this reality check, where my bubble had been popped on the capability of what humans can do to each other, because up until that point I hadn't had anything outside of a school fight. That violence happened to me and I remember that night going back to the res and having a dop and having a proper moment, just realizing the reality of the world. So I want to bring it back to you in that moment.
Speaker 1:I think as South Africans we've grown up in a very interesting time in our history and tumultuous. We've got our own set of problems and violence is not foreign and I'm sure as a farmer, you've seen some stuff right. So I want to just drill into your moments and I know it's blurry and, again, if it's getting too heavy you can avoid the question. But the guys walk in right and you're in this moment now and I suppose at the point when this person gets shot, your world's changed. Now, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So immediate reaction was to try and find a solution. Yeah, okay. And it's amazing how your mind starts to sort of work at like 20 times the speed, just like that, all of a sudden. Work at like 20 times the speed, just like that. All of a sudden these guys walked in, we climbed under the table and I lay there and they dragged the one guy out from next to me and he disappeared and I was just lying there face-to-face with his wife and the other guy, martin, who got shot, and you know your brain. I started to think well, the one guy is standing at the gate with an AK-47, so he's 10, 12 meters away. Okay, so I mean, why is he there? And I thought, well, my brain just processed bang, he is there because he is at the gate, he's making sure nobody comes in, nobody goes out, and he's got a good distance between us. Okay, so we can't run at the guy. Another guy standing in the middle of the complex, five meters away from us, or maybe eight meters away from us. And I was like, well, he is there because the other guy there's three of them the other guy's coming up to us, so the guy coming up to us is doing the dirty work of picking us up and dragging us out. The guy in the middle is basically sure that he's got a five meters or eight meters head start. So so you know, you start piecing this together like this is exactly why this whole, this is why these guys are strategically standing in their places. But now the guys picked up the one person from next to me, dragged him out.
Speaker 2:Um, now I'm alone, okay, under this table, I mean with the other people, but but the danger is step back. I wonder if I can actually now climb out from under here and run away. But I'm in a compound with big walls. So what I'm going to have to do is I'm going to have to run and jump over a wall. Okay, but these are quite high walls. I mean, do I even have the sufficient adrenaline to jump that height? I mean, who knows?
Speaker 2:But also there's a set of stairs next to me that goes up onto the roof. I mean North African houses, they're these flat root houses and people can sit on the roof. So there were these stairs. I mean I could jump, I could run up these stairs onto the roof, but now I'm going to be probably like five meters off the ground. And now what? Now I'm going to jump from there over the wall. I will probably do my ankle, okay. I mean, you know I'll do more than my ankle probably. But I mean I'm going to be damaged and these guys will come and get me.
Speaker 2:So I was trying to evaluate straight away, and then from that the guy came back and got me, okay. So opportunity was gone. It was lost. It was lost, dragged out. It actually took a long time for me to actually understand that what was going on was serious, okay. And then when the one guy was killed, even that did not really compute. You're just on adrenaline, I mean you just your body's pumping, you probably can't comprehend that event right Seeing something like that so violent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it didn't actually make sense. You're just on adrenaline, you start to get superhuman, and whether you use your superhuman to try and take everybody over, or use your superhuman just to try and settle your nerves, or use your superhuman just to try and think clearly, I mean, you know, whatever you're using that adrenaline for, it's got to go somewhere in a way. And I think I realized that don't use the superhuman, don't use this adrenaline to do something stupid and try and jump on one of these guys and take over, because it's not going to work. You know, I'd already evaluated that they were standing far enough away that I couldn't do anything and at this stage, no, I was basically being handcuffed.
Speaker 1:Were they speaking in what language? No, arabic, arabic, okay. So you couldn't even tell what they were saying to each other. No, no, no, okay. So they cuffed you and then… Stuck us on the back. How many of you were?
Speaker 2:there, three of us were taken. Okay, three of us were taken, but I mean going back to what you were saying about after your knife event. And then you went back to the hostel, whatever, and you sat there thinking, wow, what took place? What could have happened? I could have been killed for a phone, et cetera, et cetera. That moment of realization for me got kicked back about two years. Wow, yeah, it sounds crazy, I mean.
Speaker 1:so, if I bring it back to a south african sort of analogy, where, well, you're in survival mode, right, I mean, I suppose you don't your brain, you, you don't have time to stop and reflect the next two years was life and death on daily basis.
Speaker 2:So if I bring us back to like a South African event or whatever, let's say somebody gets hijacked. You go, you drive in your car, guys smash your window, jump in, take you and your car, stick you behind the seat, drive you around for eight hours. You think you're going to live. You can think you're going to die. You're not sure. You're terrified. Eight hours later, they pull up next to a piece of open ground, drive off and then you sit there eight hours later middle of the night thinking shit, what's happened? And then you try a phone home or flag down a car and you end up going home. And then you have trauma and then you go and see a counselor to try and make sense that you almost died the last you know a day ago for those eight hours. So your adrenaline spikes and then it comes down. Within that Mine.
Speaker 2:My situation was a bit different. I think my situation was my adrenaline spiked, sort of. On the 25th of November 2011, which was a Friday afternoon, I got kidnapped and my adrenaline spiked and I think it sat up there for better part of the first two years, which is probably why I look so old? Okay, because I think the adrenaline made me age. And then, two years later, the flipping, your adrenaline comes off and you sit there and go wow, let me try and make sense. But actually the point is, I think, because my drip, because I was held in such a flippin intense situation for so long, um, I realized I was either going to crack and break and just be an absolute frack.
Speaker 2:Look, there were times. I thought there were times, my mind, my, there were times. My mind, my mind, my brain, my mind, my reality. You know what was keeping me together? This little thing between my ears felt in my mind. It felt as I was holding a pencil and my brain was this pencil and this pencil was between two hands and people were flexing it, people were bending this pencil, okay, and it felt to me as though you, as though it can only take so much, and then when you give it just too much, it cracks. And then you put more and then you've actually got two pieces of pencil in your hands and now your brain is completely broken. But how much flex can that pencil take before it actually breaks?
Speaker 2:And there were times I thought I have got this thing that's about one centimeter thick and that is is my brain. And if it breaks, what happens next? Can you put it back together or are you permanently broken? And if you can put it back together, if you can put it back together, can you put it back together? But if you can, does it require medication, does it require serious sedatives to actually try and come back from where you have been, where you've physically altered your personality and your reality? I was terrified, terrified. There were times I wasn't sure I was going to survive within the next 30 seconds, 20 seconds, 10 seconds. Literally sat there counting the seconds, thinking this is going to be it.
Speaker 1:Did it ebb and flow when it came to violence? What caused the bending of the pencil? Was that their behavior towards you? Was it circumstance?
Speaker 2:It was pretty much everything. It was pretty much everything. It was very much the way I perceived their behavior to be towards me and, of course, they're going to be talking in Arabic.
Speaker 1:Did they treat you badly the whole time?
Speaker 2:No, no, no. But the early days, you know, there was a lot of mental manipulation, or even I mean I say mental manipulation, it almost implies that they were doing it intentionally. I mean they may have been doing it intentionally, it may have just been complete disregard. It may have been intentional because you know prisoner, you know prisoner. What do you call it? Prisoner psychology? Give the prisoners just enough information that they don't get volatile. Prisoner psychology give the prisoners just enough information that they don't get volatile. Don't give them too much, because it might be too much information that they can use against us and try and escape or take over a camp.
Speaker 2:So you just trip feed enough information to keep the prisoners manageable. It may have been that. It may have also been alternatively. It was just complete disregard. These guys are non-believers. They really they are. You know they've got less value than they told me I had less value than a goat. Okay, at least you can eat a goat.
Speaker 1:So there was a lot of verbal kind of manipulation as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. But also it was something which I didn't quite understand because I mean, you know us South Africans. I think we, having come from our history, we are super aware of being equal and being respectful between people. I think our generation, you know, we've sort of come out of a place where the stuff that we might be getting blamed for but we weren't really a part of it. So we almost become over politically correct. You know like we shy away from anything that's like racially insensitive. We don't go there.
Speaker 2:So in the desert, I mean, you know, I was completely dumbfounded by the fact that I was so hated by these guys for nothing I'd ever done wrong. I mean, I'm a human, they're a human. I've done nothing wrong, I've never said anything bad about them. I'm completely accepting of Islam, but yet they were judging me to such a degree that even a goat has more value than me. They see no humanity in me. Because I'm a non-believer, because I'm not a Muslim, they say that this is the worst kind of creation. This is the worst kind of creation because even goats and sheep and camels and dogs and cats worship God in their own way, but us non-believers, we choose not to worship the one, god. So that's what I really battled with, that and off the back of that, I tried to befriend these guys.
Speaker 1:I tried to be seen. I was just going to be my next question. Did you try and kind of build rapport?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. Because I had no hard feelings towards these guys and I could not understand why they disliked me so much. And based on my you know the history of you know my history, you know when I was younger, what have you? I loved people, I loved getting along with people, I loved the connection with people and I thought, well, let me just try and get along with these guys. And I couldn't get along with these guys. I mean, I would, even if you tried. They were just. I tried. I gave as much personality as I possibly could under the trauma and under the hectic situation.
Speaker 2:But these guys, their eyes were dark like a flipping shark. Okay, I used to enjoy scuba diving and you'd look into a shark's eyes and it was like it was like a number eight ball, like a billiard ball, and there was no life in their eyes. You look inside these guys eyes there was no life, there was no warmth in their eyes, it was just straight dislike for me and that ran deep because it's like they are seeing me as I'm not being human and I cannot change the way of viewing me and no matter how hard I try to stay alive, I need to win them over, but there is no scope within you, know, capacity within them to actually see me as being human, which means it's so much easier for them to kill me if they don't see me as being human. That ran so deep, so deep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that freaks me out just even thinking about it or talking about it. I think we take for granted consciousness and how, how people can be humanistic towards each other. And, um, even in our normal lives, in a worst case scenario, there's still a a semblance of humanistic behavior. Can disagree with someone or get into an altercation, but doesn't have that dimension. You don't come across that often, unless you engage a complete psychopath or you know someone that's no, but you know it was amazing.
Speaker 2:One of my biggest learnings from this was was how we take for granted this countries that we live in, where there is freedom of choice, freedom of conversation, freedom of conversation, freedom of all sorts of things. You know, I saw slaves in the desert. You know, we all hear about slaves, you know. I mean probably, probably, like the most known slaves these days are probably sex slaves in Eastern Europe or things like that. You know, but the old days, historically, of slaves, where someone comes and does your dirty work and they're a slave, Do they even exist? You hear about it, but do they even exist? I saw slaves in the desert.
Speaker 2:I saw slaves. I was living in an era, at a time. The Sahara was like going back in time thousands of years and choice and being able to speak up and freedom. Freedom we take it for granted. When you've got handcuffs on your wrist and where you have less value than a goat, as I say, you realize your freedom's been taken from you. I had a little eight-year-old basically telling me I was going to be killed so the age varied quite dramatically between your cap. Yeah, yeah the youngest I saw was an eight-year-old.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, and that went all the way up to so you know, I could spend a day talking to you about this and I'm just conscious of your time and I'm trying to grasp. Six years, yeah, like I mean, did they have you doing manual labor? Like, how did you, if you had to sum it up into blocks of time, you know, like the first year, two years, three years, six years, how did it change? What was the progression of behavior or dynamic and what is the key kind of learnings that you had within yourself? How did you change as an individual during that period?
Speaker 2:okay, so, okay, cool, um. So just remind me in a minute that, um, if I forget this, remind me in a minute that I said to you. This whole thing for me felt like it was a spiritual thing, okay, this spiritual journey. So as far as this whole thing, the whole build up with this, it started out with al-qaeda were literally a bunch of guys who were running around with knives and plastic knives and forks stabbing people. Okay, they were. They really did not have themselves caught up together, okay. So in the beginning they were very naive and they were sort of like you know, stick it together kind of bunch of terrorists. Um, then, of course, it was during the arab spring, and then north africa fell apart and Gaddafi was killed and now there was weapons absolutely everywhere. So now the knives and forks were now replaced with AK-47s and RPGs and bloody rockets and things like that.
Speaker 1:Arab Spring was before or during.
Speaker 2:I hit the tail end. Well, the Arab Spring was happening when I got kidnapped. It was the tail end of the Arab Spring, but the fact that Gaddafi got killed in Libya was a disaster, because Gaddafi had probably one of the biggest arm stashes in Africa and when he got killed, everybody had access to his arm stash. So Al-Qaeda told me stories where they were so because Libya became a mess and Al-Qaeda were actually very excited because everybody was sending troops to Libya to try and stabilize Libya. And then there was talk of the US going to Libya to try and stabilize Libya. And then there was talk of the US going to Libya to try and stabilize Libya and, of course, al-qaeda go. Oh, the bloody Americans, you know, poking their nose in everywhere, and Al-Qaeda were pretty irritated with this. And then they had a change of tune. Then they completely turned around and said you know what? This is actually fantastic. America, go to Libya, send your troops in there, because you know what? Everybody has got an AK-47. You'll have flipping five-year-olds, 10-year-olds, 15-year-olds with AK-47s and every single night in the streets of Tripoli, in the streets of Libya, every night is Guy Fawkes, you've got these young kids running around sending RPG rockets down the high street. Okay, I mean, it sounds like an absolute free-for. So they said, if the US go in there, everybody wants to shoot a US Marine. So actually everyone's going to be gunning, so the US are going to take massive losses, okay, so I mean, so that was Libya. So now all of a sudden there's weapons everywhere over North Africa.
Speaker 2:And then Al-Qaeda were getting stronger and then the French military got involved in North Africa and the whole region was destabilized and the French got involved because they were scared Al-Qaeda were going to take over and get into Europe. And then, you know, right on the doorstep of Europe, and then a war broke out with the French and that war is still going on. Actually, I mean, recently the French stepped out Was it last year? Because the Wagner group is now climbing in and the Malian government doesn't want the French there because they were the colonists. And now they're going with the Russians and now the Russians are doing, apparently, other atrocities and mass killings and stuff like this. So it's just sort of one evil replaced with another evil, but it's been a whole evolution. It was an evolution of Al-Qaeda. I watched young kids, okay, 14-year, okay, 14 year olds, young kids growing into men with beards at the age of 20 after my six years, and they were Al-Qaeda.
Speaker 2:Al-Qaeda soldiers but they were young kids. They were young kids, they had just hit puberty and these young kids had squeaky voices and they were running around playing with guns. Six years later they were men. They were men. So I watched an evolution of Al-Qaeda going from plastic knives and forks as weapons to basically having I mean, they had vehicles, they had RPGs, they had massive rear-mounted 4x4, rear-mounted .50 caliber weapons on the back. I mean they grew
Speaker 2:incredibly. So I watched a complete evolution of Al-Qaeda evolution of age, 14-year-olds becoming 20-year-olds, evolution of the world, evolution of the French military evolution of you know, it was during the Ebola virus, during the rise and the fall of isis. It was a six-year period. But also it was a massive evolution of myself, I suppose, being kidnapped, terrified, confused, because I've been in, because and I'll bring it back to back to my career where I say I lost myself in my career I then get kidnapped, confused, not even sure who I am and what I stand for, because I'd lost myself as a human within life. And I think we all fall into this at some stage. Oh, a lot of us do Not all of us. Some of us are very happy, I think most humans are struggling with something similar.
Speaker 2:You lose yourself, you stop being authentic to yourself. We start chasing money or we start chasing something or something else, but we're not actually doing what we want to do because we're trying to keep up with the Joneses. So with time you start to lose yourself. So when I was kidnapped, I did not know who I was. But what I did know was that if I didn't know who I was, I would not be able to define myself with Al-Qaeda. And if I could not define myself, Al-Qaeda would not be able to define me except as being a prisoner who they want to execute. And if they cannot define me, there's a far greater chance that they will execute me. So I realized and I actually dedicated my entire six years in the end, my indefinite prison sentence, because I didn't know it was going to be six years. I ended up redefining this thing by saying I'm going to use this period as a sabbatical to refine myself. And if Al-Qaeda do not kill me, I have to go home complete refinding myself. And if I can't go home, complete, Al-Qaeda may as well shoot me, okay, Because life is not worth it.
Speaker 2:It sounds bizarre because it's difficult to sort of equate mental health, even in the same ballpark as being kidnapped by the world's most feared terrorist organization. But there were so many overlaps with this thing and from from a spiritual perspective, where actually I felt as though I was now being kidnapped because I had lost myself and that was against God's will. And now he put me into the situation to refine myself and then to come out a complete person. So my biggest learnings if you want my biggest learnings from this whole thing, my number one learning is be authentic and self-awareness and do what you're created to do. I was a square block and a round hole in my career and it made me lose myself.
Speaker 2:I used my six years to refine myself and I used my 18-year-old persona as the person I wanted to be, because that's when I thought my life was the most authentic and the clearest in my mind.
Speaker 2:And in my six years in the desert, I used to imagine myself being passionate as an 18 year old. You know, with my hobbies, my birdwatching, my conversations with people, you know my passions, my dislikes, and I've tried to re bring those, those, those, those characteristics forward and help me feel them again and believe them and love them. And in the end, when I came out the end, I came back and I was passionate. I was passionate for the person I believe I was programmed to be and I think when I was 18, I was programmed to be somebody who enjoyed people and enjoyed passion and enjoyed the outdoors. And I came back being that person, passionate for people, passionate for the outdoors, and in a way, I was very fortunate to be kidnapped and put in the Sahara and not be kidnapped and stuck inside a prison cell, because that probably would have been the end of me.
Speaker 1:Or not realizing you're kidnapped in a job or life. That is autopilot. Not even realizing you're in prison Spot on, spot on.
Speaker 2:So that's so funny, you say that. Okay. So my realizations was really the importance of being able to count on yourself to make decisions If you know who you are. So self-awareness, if you know who you are, you can make decisions that are based on what you believe and what you think, and not being influenced by the Joneses. Make decisions for yourself, because that is probably the truest route that you're going to have for living a satisfying life and actually making an impact on people around you. Because if you're trying to be somebody else, you know, if I'm a finance guy and I'm trying to be in marketing and I'm trying to force a situation, I'm not going to have the impact on people that I should be having. Be the person you are, because that's the greatest. You'll have the greatest chance of making an impact on people around you if you are actually marketing what you believe in. So be true to yourself and for kids, don't try be the fastest runner, don't. But don't try be the cleverest, don't try be the prettiest unless you are those. If you are those, live it. If you aren't those, don't try and be those, because you're not being authentic and you'll lose yourself in your, in your life and you'll never be happy. So, really, about being authentic and funny. You say that about being a prison within your career, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Because I came out of the desert and I was 42 years old when I came out. So I lost 36,. Well, lost I don't use the word lost because I'm not a victim, but I was elsewhere from 36 until I was 42, getting other experiences. And I came back and one thing I didn't know how to do was how to be 42 years old because I was kidnapped by 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds, 20-year-olds, 8-year-olds. I was kidnapped by a different age group and I came back and I said to my mates I said, you know, I have this very good friend, richard. I said, rich, I'm 42 years old. I don't know if I'm immature, I don't know if I'm too mature or too intense.
Speaker 2:With what I've been through, I've got no idea what it is to be 42 years old. So what I'm doing is I'm really focusing on my mates, like you, and when I have a conversation I try to make a joke. I want to see if you can actually smile and laugh or if you're judging me with your eyes, because that is my only way to understand what it is to be 42 years old. So I'm comparing myself to you guys and Richie said to me he said, steve, whatever you do, don't compare yourselves to us, because we are more screwed up than you are.
Speaker 2:Wow, and he was comparing six years in captivity to life in the real world. And I mean it's funny, but in a very strange way, there's a lot of truth in that, because a lot of people are on antidepressants and anti-anxiety tablets and this world is a bit of a mess and people have lost themselves, chasing things that don't resonate with them or things that are real. And I had the blessing, the privilege, if you like, of having a six-year sabbatical out of the real world where I could re-find myself and re-find my value and live it and be strong within myself, that I was able to come back and say this is what defines me, this is what I am and this is what I stand for, and that, I think, is the strongest tool to have to overcome anything in life.
Speaker 1:That is phenomenal. Did you find that your relationship with? Are you religious?
Speaker 2:I believe in God absolutely. I battle with religion.
Speaker 1:It must have been an interesting debate, considering who had kidnapped you and how dogmatic they are in their beliefs, to the point of committing complete atrocities but I don't want to digress too much in that I think in this closing part of where we go now, there's so much more that I would love to learn from you and spend time with you to absorb, because I think this has made you wiser beyond your years. I suspect it's given you some superpowers when it comes to reading people's situations circumstances. Right now you're doing amazing work with corporates and teams, so maybe you can just give like a quick high-level overview of the epic work that you're doing and how this experience has enabled you to share and work with people in a different way.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, yeah. So it's funny, I've. You know, I said I've always enjoyed people, and now it's funny how my career has gone, you know, full circle back to dealing with people, where where I can, where I spent time with amazing people and have amazing conversations, and, and what I've done is I've, I've. I basically fell into keynote talks, okay, into keynote talks, okay. I came out of the desert and a friend of mine said please, come talk to my team, and I was like, no, leave me alone, I don't do this, I'm terrified about public speaking. Eventually, I went and spoke and the feedback was unbelievable. And off the back of that, I then got onto the speaking circuit in South Africa and I understand that in 2020, with COVID, I understand, I was the busiest, the number one speaker in South Africa, which was amazing. I mean crazy. Everybody was trying to compare two weeks of lockdown to you know how do we get through two weeks of lockdown? So they, so I did a lot of talking about that, but I speak to corporates, I speak to schools, I speak to forums. I do it locally, I do it internationally. It's amazing. I'm traveling the world, I'm busy and I love it and really, I think the theme, really the theme is that we're enough, that resilience we're enough. You know, embrace yourself and just know that you're okay. And even if you don't have the skills, you can absolutely learn the skills if your head is in the right place. So I've been speaking at. You know, we wrote a book. It actually won the South African Book Awards. The international version is called Six Years a Hostage and, yeah, and it's done incredibly well. It actually won the South African Book Awards. It's been turned into an international movie which should be out in the next year or so, I think. But yeah, I think it's been an amazing journey. And I think of keynotes. I've been doing small keynotes from like sort of three people all the way up to 3,000 people. In Australia last year on the Gold Coast, I spoke to 3,000 people. I do book things.
Speaker 2:Then my next step that I want to do, that I really want to do and I've got to learn the skills how to do this. I want to start doing workshops. I want to start doing workshops because I had that cloud in my head from banking and I decided, if I'm going to go home with a mess inside my head, al-qaeda should rather shoot me, rather shoot me. Well, I came home with a clear mind and I created my own little methodology of how to actually work myself through my depression that I had without medication, which was amazing. So I want to go and start doing workshops, but also what I also want to do is I want to start getting more involved with schools and children, because this world's a bit of a mess and this world is too beautiful to be a mess, actually, and people should recognize the beauty and embrace it. So I'm looking at getting more involved with schools and speaking to kids with schools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say, you know, I think the keynotes are great and inspirational.
Speaker 1:For sure, I wish we had more time together, because I believe you've got a framework on how to deal with a unique set of circumstances that everyone's actually currently in.
Speaker 1:And it's about, you know, if I look at all the businesses I'm engaging with, that I'm trying to help with the transformation strategies, or, you know, if I look at the people that I'm engaging with, it is a very interesting time to be alive and it's a weird contrast because we've got everything we need, but we still also never been more unhappy in many respects.
Speaker 1:And I think it comes back down to, at an organizational level or even at a personal level, what is your purpose and what is your authentic self. And I believe that you've been blessed with a very contrasting, difficult journey, and it's such a beautiful way that you've reframed the experience to be able to go and help people look at themselves look at themselves, because you don't need to be kidnapped by al-Qaeda to to go through the framework and uh uh process of identifying who are you really and what should you actually be doing. And I would encourage anyone and I'll definitely reach out to you and and and take it offline, but I would encourage anyone to to engage, to engage with you and to learn from you in that respect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. You know, like I say, while you were sitting here in Singapore or in South Africa, you know you were going through your daily life. I was sitting in the desert going through my daily life and, you know, while you had a routine, I had a routine. So a lot of my stuff was just about trying to adapt my routine and my mind to get to whatever life, whether the stress was somebody shooting a missile at you, or whether the stress was about to be retrenched or someone's father or mother being ill. I mean those stresses, we all have stresses. It was about trying to manage oneself, to actually work them on, selves, around these stresses, which is completely doable.
Speaker 1:If anyone wants to get hold of you, where can they go?
Speaker 2:So I have a website which is wwwstephenmagowncom, but it's spelled S-T-E-P-H-E-N-M-C-G-O-W-Ncom, and I'm also on Instagram, so it's stephenmagown. I'm on LinkedIn, Stephen Magown, International Speaker, and I'm on Facebook, Stephen Magowan. Yeah, spelled like a dressing gown with R and A, with R and E, because everybody gets that wrong.
Speaker 1:But I'm pretty sure they'll find you. You definitely got lots of traction and following. Stephen, thank you, I'm really grateful for your time I know that you've had quite a busy two days and for taking the last hour and a half two hours to come sit with us and share this with the listeners. I truly appreciate you. I'm really grateful that you came out the other side so positive, so reframed and going out there and helping other people. So I see you, I appreciate you and would like to learn more from you. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, man. Thanks for getting me onto your podcast anytime thanks, a bunch, take care, thank you.